Curse

fireflyry · Oct 22, 2008, 10:36 AM // 10:36

It's PvE.

Exactly.

Bobby2 · Oct 22, 2008, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Swift

Everyone is assuming he means for general play. But, he did not specify.

Note how OP didn't post this in farming forum

illidan009 · Oct 23, 2008, 01:19 AM // 01:19

If you're a sin that relies on attack skills(excluding the SF dagger farming build) and you don't have Critical Agility, plz stop playing assassin.
That being said, 16 really isnt needed...there's no point. Even 16 crit would be better since it provides e management...still pretty ineffective though.

Bobby2 · Oct 23, 2008, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by illidan009

If you're a sin that relies on attack skills(excluding the SF dagger farming build) and you don't have Critical Agility, plz stop playing assassin.
That being said, 16 really isnt needed...there's no point. Even 16 crit would be better since it provides e management...still pretty ineffective though.

After breakpoint 13 CritStrikes, there's no point in increasing it further

Also: stashing points in weapon mastery does more for your crit rate (1.3% compared to 1.0% for CritStrikes), and a bit of double striking as well

Stealth Bomberman · Oct 24, 2008, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsn

looking for some opinions on running 16 dagger master(0.99 attack rate with lvl 16 dagger mastery)

i wasnt sure if there was a increased attack speed cap for assassins or not

any tips would be great

there is a noticable difference from 1.33>>0.99

but can really see a difference with lvl 16 DM +33% ias from critical agility

im sure about 30 ppl will chime in that sup runes are a *noob* move.

please read the facts before writing something idiotic please(research before you flame)

anyone with assassin exp in this area please reply or pm

ign-Bunny Quickness

where did u come up with those numbers? dagg mastery doesnt affect ur IAS, it only affects ur dagg dmg/crit chance.

sup runes are noob, unless ur running some kind of prot hero setup.

the IAS cap is the same for every prof, 33%

my tips for u:
1. drop dagg to 14
2. crit to 13
3. staple crit agility to ur bar

moriz · Oct 24, 2008, 05:17 PM // 17:17

actually, increasing dagger mastery does increase your attack speed, because higher dagger mastery will result in more double strikes.

however, keep in mind that double strikes only occur on autoattacks, and you shouldn't be doing that much of it as a sin.

with all that said, pumping any attribute to 16 is a waste of time. there's been plenty of research to back it up.

jsn · Oct 29, 2008, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealth Bomberman

where did u come up with those numbers? dagg mastery doesnt affect ur IAS, it only affects ur dagg dmg/crit chance.

sup runes are noob, unless ur running some kind of prot hero setup.

the IAS cap is the same for every prof, 33%

my tips for u:
1. drop dagg to 14
2. crit to 13
3. staple crit agility to ur bar

not that it really matters(been running 13-14 dm for awhile since this post is pretty old anyways) but the speed increase with lvl 16 dagger mastery if posted on guildwiki(in the weapon section under daggers)

Targren · Nov 03, 2008, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Striken7

No (good) assassin uses SF in actual PvE, it's for farming and farming only.

That's not true!

It's also used for running. ^_^

dasmitchies · Nov 04, 2008, 12:53 AM // 00:53

There is a major issue overlooked here. What is the makeup of the rest of the party? Do you have an orders-mancer? Are you bringing discordway? I run a SF Dagger build with THREE sup runes. Nuts huh? When I bring discordway i have none. Your choices of builds and runes are going to change from situation to situation. A good rule of thumb, if you are not the primary source of damage you do not need superior runes in PVE. That's it, nuff said.

Bobby2 · Nov 04, 2008, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by dasmitchies

There is a major issue overlooked here. What is the makeup of the rest of the party? Do you have an orders-mancer? Are you bringing discordway?

BS. Nor me, nor none of my Heroes bar Jagged Bomber, run anything worse than Minor Att runes.

Not counting my SF suit ofc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dasmitchies

I run a SF Dagger build with THREE sup runes. Nuts huh? When I bring discordway i have none. Your choices of builds and runes are going to change from situation to situation. A good rule of thumb, if you are not the primary source of damage you do not need superior runes in PVE. That's it, nuff said.

Highlighted for your convenience. Implying that your SF Dagger build is your team's primary source of damage.

gfg

greenreaper3 · Nov 10, 2008, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Striken7

No (good) assassin uses SF in actual PvE, it's for farming and farming only.

And running...

snaek · Nov 10, 2008, 05:31 AM // 05:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

actually, increasing dagger mastery does increase your attack speed, because higher dagger mastery will result in more double strikes.

double strikes does not mean ias

does dual strikes allow u to pull off attack skills one after teh other more faster?

...then dun call it an ias

Kale Ironfist · Nov 10, 2008, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

double strikes does not mean ias

does dual strikes allow u to pull off attack skills one after teh other more faster?

...then dun call it an ias

An increased amount of Dagger Mastery increases the chance of double strikes, which will raise the average amount of attacks in a given time period. Hence it does increase the amount of attacks.

dreamex2 · Nov 21, 2008, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kale Ironfist

An increased amount of Dagger Mastery increases the chance of double strikes, which will raise the average amount of attacks in a given time period. Hence it does increase the amount of attacks.

That doesn't matter because it doesn't increase your attack speed, you still attack at the same speed, you just score more double strikes, which do nothing for your ability to raise your dps outside of autoattacking, while IAS abilities like critical agility allow you to chain your attack skills faster and provide a stable increase in dps.

If you're not running a build that predominantly uses auto-attacks then double strikes are almost worthless, you should be spamming your dagger attack skills and having higher dagger mastery won't earn you any faster attacks that way.

Kale Ironfist · Nov 21, 2008, 02:04 AM // 02:04

If I read what you posted correctly, you just outright stated it's an IAS, except when in conjunction with dagger attack skills.

So, unless you can somehow prove that you're not getting more attacks due to double strikes over time in the optimum setting (ie, when not using dagger attack skills), you are wrong. The average time between a set amount of attacks has gone down. Hence you're getting more attacks in a given amount of time compared to if you had 0% chance to double strike.

Just because it is variable based on chance and has a restriction on when it applies, does not mean you're not getting the bonus of an increased amount of attacks in a given time period. Look at [Berserker Stance]. Is that too not an IAS because it ends when you use a skill?

You have to remember that the OP provided no context, so you can't just say it isn't an IAS due to the fact that it doesn't apply when using dagger attack skills.

dreamex2 · Nov 24, 2008, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kale Ironfist

If I read what you posted correctly, you just outright stated it's an IAS, except when in conjunction with dagger attack skills.

So, unless you can somehow prove that you're not getting more attacks due to double strikes over time in the optimum setting (ie, when not using dagger attack skills), you are wrong. The average time between a set amount of attacks has gone down. Hence you're getting more attacks in a given amount of time compared to if you had 0% chance to double strike.

Just because it is variable based on chance and has a restriction on when it applies, does not mean you're not getting the bonus of an increased amount of attacks in a given time period. Look at [Berserker Stance]. Is that too not an IAS because it ends when you use a skill?

You have to remember that the OP provided no context, so you can't just say it isn't an IAS due to the fact that it doesn't apply when using dagger attack skills.

You don't understand the definition of IAS as a term in the game.

It is defined as increasing the rate at which you attack, it is measured as a constant, and it has a set cap and every skill that improves IAS adheres to the same set of restrictions and provides the same benefit.

Double Strike is not an increase in attack speed, it is a variable that may grant additional attacks, it could increase the rate of attack within a certain window of time but does not count as an IAS buff because it doesn't follow the definition of IAS.

This isn't up for debate, IAS is "Increased Attack Speed", not "Sometimes I Attack More When Not Using Skills"

Calling it IAS will just confuse people like the OP into thinking that it's equivalent to or better than Critical Agility or other skills. Which it isn't, it stacks with IAS effects and doesn't provide the same benefit as IAS effects, so please stop calling it IAS.

Kale Ironfist · Nov 24, 2008, 11:48 PM // 23:48

We'll have to agree to disagree then. Here's my reasoning for why I (and probably moriz too) attribute its effect as to be an IAS:
IAS is used to get more attacks in.
Increasing the chance of double strikes increases the average number of attacks over time.

We're not using it's definition strictly according to game mechanics, but we're talking about the end result of getting more attacks in.

Quote:

Sometimes I Attack More When Not Using Skills

There are two skills that follow the definition of IAS, and they can't be used with attack skills either. Why do you keep saying this?

dreamex2 · Nov 25, 2008, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kale Ironfist

We'll have to agree to disagree then. Here's my reasoning for why I (and probably moriz too) attribute its effect as to be an IAS:
IAS is used to get more attacks in.
Increasing the chance of double strikes increases the average number of attacks over time.

We're not using it's definition strictly according to game mechanics, but we're talking about the end result of getting more attacks in.

There are two skills that follow the definition of IAS, and they can't be used with attack skills either. Why do you keep saying this?

Even Berserker Stance allows you to chain an attack skill faster following a regular attack, although the stance ends, the effect of it increasing attack speed is different from the effect of double strike giving you occasional extra attacks. The difference would be most evident if you needed to cancel out of your regular attack in order to use an interupt skill, IE Disrupting Chop, it would receive the benefit from Berserker Stance's 33% IAS and come out sooner, whereas Double Strike would do nothing in this situation (even if it applied to warriors using adrenaline skills and axes).

You may say the net effect of both is similar enough to be a negligible difference in performance there remains the key factor that Berserker Stance stacks with Double Strike but not with Critical Agility or other IAS modifiers, when you define something and distinguish something you cannot apply something else the same way just because it fulfills part of the requirement.

Double Strike will allow you to get more attacks in a given time frame but it is still not the same as IAS, this isn't really about agreeing to disagree, it's about creating a less ambiguous definition of both effects so people do not get confused when someone talks about the IAS cap or the effects of double strike in an attack-skill heavy bar or even as the topic title states, a comparison between 16 DM vs CA.

They're not the same and they can't be compared.